MacArthur

What Would You Do If Your Child Was Gay?

John MacArthur was recently asked by a reader how they should respond to an adult child who has acknowledged they are gay. His parenting advice?

Alienate them.

Separate them.

Isolate them.

Refuse to have a meal with them.

Turn them over to Satan.

-Benjamin L. Corey
“John MacArthur on Having Gay Children: Alienate Them & Turn Them Over to Satan”
from “Formerly Fundie: The Official Blog of Benjamin L. Corey”
patheos.com

“Formerly Fundie” is listed as a “Progressive Christian Channel” at Patheos, so chances are Corey and I don’t have a lot in common, since I’m pretty socially and politically conservative. I don’t know who this gentleman is or why he needs an “official blog” for himself and his name (and based on many of the comments on his blog, I’m glad I don’t have his readership), but a link to his blog post was inserted into Facebook by a Facebook “friend” who is about as progressive as it gets (I have a wide variety of friends, virtual and otherwise).

If you are a regular reader of my blog, you know I almost universally disagree with just about everything Pastor MacArthur teaches, preaches, writes, and broadcasts. I found his treatment of Pentecostals at his Strange Fire conference to be typical of his highly confrontational style, and his perspectives on both ancient and modern Judaism, including Messianic Judaism, show, in my opinion, an extremely poor insight into the actual late second temple Jewish and apostolic cultural, religious, educational, and spiritual environment. He “Christianizes” every bit of scripture he touches as if he imagines Jesus and the twelve were good Baptist Preachers from the church right across the street in “Hometown, U.S.A.”

OK, that last bit might be something of an exaggeration, but you get the idea.

There’s a YouTube video of MacArthur that goes along with Corey’s article. I’ll post it at the bottom of today’s “meditation” so you can actually hear what MacArthur says. I was surprised that the tone of his voice was calm, soft, and almost friendly. MacArthur isn’t quite as harsh in his language (and possibly intent) as Corey makes him out to be. But that doesn’t disguise the massive disconnect I think MacArthur is trying to sell to Christian parents of gay children.

Matthew Vines
Matthew Vines

In case you haven’t read them, I’ve written numerous posts on the LGBT community within both Christianity and Judaism, the latest (before this one) missive being my review of Matthew Vines’ recent book God and the Gay Christian. I also commented on Dennis Prager’s understanding on why Judaism rejected homosexuality as well as on a number of other related topics.

Am I advocating for marriage equality in the church? No, I don’t think there’s a Biblical presupposition for it. But there’s a lot going on in this dialogue that we simply cannot ignore or dismiss.

Many of you may have read about Danny Cortez, a Pastor of a Southern Baptist church in La Mirada, California, who, after his fifteen year old son came out, decided to change his theological stance on homosexuality and became gay affirming, leading his church to officially become affirming of gays within their community as well.

Naturally, Christians on both sides of the issue made highly emotional pronouncements either supporting Pastor Cortez and his church or condemning them.

But what do you do when it’s your child? What happens if you’re a Christian and it’s your son or daughter who tearfully, painfully, comes out to you because he or she can’t stand holding it inside anymore, can’t stand lying, can’t stand hiding their feelings? What happens after they tell you and then they just stand there looking at you expectantly, fearing your anger but praying for your acceptance?

One of my sons has two male friends who came out within the last several years, and one of those young men comes from an Evangelical family.

What do you do?

At the church I attend, in Sunday school probably a year or more ago, the question came up of what the church would do if two lesbians came in and wanted to worship. A fellow, who is a member of the Board of Elders, responded, “Love ’em and learn ’em.” I don’t think that was overall support for acceptance of lesbian relationships in the church. He was likely communicating the idea that by welcoming them into the church community, over time, they would be influenced and understand the nature of homosexuality related to the expectations of God, as this church understands God and expectations.

women holding handsThe understanding, and I’m projecting my own conclusions into this scenario, is if this hypothetical lesbian couple chose not to accept the church’s interpretation of scripture in terms of their relationship and their lives, they’d be free to leave and seek a more accepting church or other house of worship.

But you can’t exactly do that with your kids…or can you? The quote from MacArthur above says that’s exactly what you have to do. If your gay kid won’t repent and continues to sin (presumably by just being gay), then you must do the whole Matthew 18:15-18 thing with them, confronting your child individually, and then with two or three other witnesses, and then finally in front of the whole church (I’ve heard of one set of parents who really did this). This is actually bad exegesis on MacArthur’s part, since the child, by being gay, doesn’t directly sin against his or her parents.

I don’t think I could stand to do that with any of my kids. Maybe I’m just a bad Christian. I’m sure John MacArthur would think so.

Of course, none of my children are religious let alone Christians, and from MacArthur’s point of view, if any of them were gay, they’d be sinners just like the rest of the secular world.

A church can make whatever official, doctrinal statement it wants relative to homosexuality in the covenant community and they’re within their rights to do so. I draw the line at being compelled to accept John MacArthur’s advice on how I should relate to my children and I imagine a lot of Christian parents feel similarly.

No, none of my kids are gay, but I’ve run that scenario through my head more than a few times. What if…

MacArthur made the video supposedly in response to a parent whose adult offspring did come out, and asked MacArthur what they should do, so in this case, MacArthur is responding to a real request for information. However, he felt it necessary to make a video and then to put it on YouTube, so his opinion entered the public realm and became fodder for response and reaction.

I can’t render a theological opinion but I can give you one based on my being a father and grandfather. I can’t “unlove” my children. Sure, they’ve each done things to make me pretty unhappy at different times over the years, but none of that made me want to stop being their Dad, to stop loving them, and certainly I never had any desire to “turn them over to Satan.”

in-the-dark2-blueResponding to a gay child by alienating them, separating from them, isolating them from family, and refusing even to eat with them won’t motivate them to “repent,” it will motivate them to never have a relationship with you again and to take their own course absent of your love, caring, compassion, and consultation. MacArthur’s advice is an iron-clad guarantee that even if the child somehow desired to “repent of being gay,” they would never do so. What’s their motivation? The (so called) love of Christ according to the “gospel” of MacArthur?

Even when Israel sinned grievously against God, God may have turned His face away for an instant, but He always, always took them back and He never, ever permanently abandoned or forsake them.

I know MacArthur feels he’s giving sound doctrinal advice based on scripture, but somehow he never factored in his own experience as a parent (and I imagine a grandparent, given his age) and how he would face his own children. Sadly, my experience (such as it is) with MacArthur is that he is so dogmatic and rigid, he very well could and would take his own advice and feed any child of his who came out as gay to the (proverbial) wolves.

If any of my kids (or my grandson someday) came out as gay, I’d end up having a very long talk with God about what this was supposed to mean for my relationship with the Almighty. What does God expect me to do, reject the very child He created to be a joy in my life? I couldn’t do that. Does that make me a bad Christian? I imagine a lot of people reading this will think so. Some of you may even condemn me (even if it’s within the privacy of your own hearts) for merely entertaining such an attitude.

But what would you do if it were your own son or daughter. Imagine your little boy or girl telling you they’re gay, scared to death of what it will mean, and wondering if you’ll stop loving them in the next ten seconds or so. Imagine that this is really happening. What would you do, not just your immediate reaction, but for the long run? How’s your moral certitude doing now?

I know I said in Is It For His Glory to avoid needless arguments (though I also quoted Pastor Michael Hidalgo as saying Christians need to get out of their protected enclaves and into the real world…perhaps good advice for John MacArthur), but I also said there are times to take a stand. I believe this is one of those times.

Here’s the video of MacArthur’s response to the Christian parent who asked what to do now that their child has come out as gay:

Believe in people and you will influence them to believe in themselves.

Your belief needs to be based on reality — so develop an eye for noticing sparks of potential in others. Be enthusiastic in selling a person to himself.

-Rabbi Zelig Pliskin
“Believe in People”
Aish.com

Addendum: June 19, 2013: Today I received an email from a person named Dennis who informed me of an error I made regarding my mention of Pastor Danny Cortez. According to Dennis, the news article states that Pastor Cortez changed his theological stance to be affirming of gays in the Church before his son came out. This change in Pastor Cortez allowed his son to feel safer in coming out to his father. I apologize for misreading the news article and hope this correction clears things up.

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27 thoughts on “What Would You Do If Your Child Was Gay?”

  1. I’ve never met John MacArthur, and I certainly can’t say what’s truly in his heart, but he never fails to come across as arrogance and…well, just, mean.

    After watching the video the other day, I was thinking about shunning, which is what his advice amounts to. There is a Scriptural basis for it, but I think we get it so wrong. To “treat them like a Gentile or a tax collector” doesn’t mean you stop associating with them. It doesn’t mean that you cut them out of your life. Jesus is telling His people to treat the relationship differently, meaning: There can be no moving forward until this is dealt with. But that doesn’t necessarily mean you harp on the issue all the time.

    I’m with you on his misapplication of this principle, though. Matthew 18 is about when someone sins against you. If my brother were to go out and rob a bank, I’d obviously think that was wrong and I’d definitely ask him what he was thinking, but I wouldn’t then feel a need to take two people, go before the church, etc. because it’s not a sin against me. It isn’t a personal offence.

    I don’t have kids, but I can imagine how it would be if I did and one of them came out to me. I’d be surprised. I would have to grapple with it. I’d certainly be seeking wisdom from God. But I’d first just give him or her a hug and say, “I love you, no matter what.”

    Great post, James.

  2. I have Assembly of G-d friends (former missionaries) who are going through this as we speak! The son came out two years ago while at Wheaton and the months to follow have contained enormous pain..condemnations from fellow AG ‘friends’….and in part ’caused’ Dad to choose to go to Afghanistan. The ‘kid’ is actually a most lovable, extremely bright person. As difficult as it is for many people’ of faith’ to handle all this….I for one choose to leave it in G-d’s hand, ask Him to solve the problem and I continue to give love and friendship to the entire family.

  3. I have three young kids, and I have always wondered how I would handle it. For me, I don’t look at it as a huge deal and know God’s got a handle on things. My wife on the other hand (and especially her family) would probably flip out and do the whole shunning thing, they also believe in the whole “putting sin in front of the church” deal, which in my mind is nothing more than public shaming.

    I wouldn’t allow an abusive approach towards anyone, much less my own kids. Methods like MacArthur likes to throw out there are not beneficial in the least. I’ve been in it, actively participated, and now regret every action I was part of. Christians struggling with things don’t need fingers pointing at them, people telling them how wrong they are, or for us to infer their sin is causing God to turn away from them.

    This is no doubt a tough thing to think about, and I don’t envy anyone who has to grapple with this type of thing, but I believe God can and will pull us through without destroying anyone in the process.

  4. @Marie: Thanks.

    @Pat: Agreed. A kid could be a bank robber or an embezzler and somehow Christian parents would forgive him, but if he’s gay, it’s a real coin toss as to how they’ll react, as if being gay were so much worse a sin than anything else. Christianity has really focused more attention on this issue than a lot of other problems (such as the rampant divorce rate in the church) and maybe its time to back off a little. It’s amazing how differently things look when they happen to us as opposed to just being “out there” and someone else’s problem.

    @Jim: I actually knew a couple who faced this situation and they did the “in front of the church” thing. As time passed, their son was still gay and they had to decide how they were going to respond. The Dad seems to have reconciled a bit better than the Mom but I think they cope by just treating their son’s partner as a good friend. Of course, when their son gets married (not sure when that’s scheduled to happen), it will be a game changer.

    We have a lot of church history that tells us how to react to gay people, but because it’s such an emotionally charged issue, many Christians have a tough time reading the Bible in a way that allows them to see gay people as people rather than as icons for “icky” sin. That’s why it’s important to put a face on the issue by realizing the “issue” is a human being. That won’t make the challenges believers have in facing a gay family member go away, but it helps us realize that we can’t just cast out our sons and daughters like a torn t-shirt.

  5. @James: Not 12 Baptist preachers; 12 Neo-Calvinist preachers with MacArthur, braided rope in hand, turning over the tables of reason and reconciliation.

    I had an interesting discussion with my sons, in light of the murder of 6 people at my older son’s college. Older son asked, “Is there anything we could do that would cause you to not love us anymore?” We talked about how Elliot Rodger’s mother must have never given up loving her son. “Oh, moooom, I could probably kill someone and you would still love me.” I admitted I would hire an attorney and urge him to keep quiet 🙂

    The thing is, I wouldn’t be surprised if one of John MacArthur’s sons is a closeted gay, considering the harsh, rigid upbringing they might have had, or perhaps he treats his children differently than his subjects. I am sure he loves his children, but suspect he loves his doctrine more to the point that he would believe that to quash his parental tenderness to be in the service of heaven. We can see in action, the letter killing while the spirit gives life. As you mentioned, this estrangement would drive the wounded sheep into the drooling mouths of wolves, who would welcome him as dinner.

    The biblical example of casting out and shunning was a very extreme situation, with the subject committing incest with his own step-mother, something that would indicate he was living his life separated from the life of God although he knew better, and should be treated as such. And as you mentioned, he was removed from the gathering of the faith community; not from his family. Suppose the removal from the congregation of believers, even in this case, was not harsh and hateful, but loving and hopeful?

  6. I knew a woman who told me that her younger sister had gotten pregnant at 15, and she was required to stand up in front of her Pentecostal church and repent for her sin.

    If anyone is standing up in front of the church repenting, it should be her parents for not adequately guiding and protecting her.

  7. Especially not protecting her…from the humiliation and trauma of standing up in front of the church to be judged as a “slut” and to always be looked down upon in that congregation. The church is just a body of human beings. Sure, if I sin against someone else in church, I need to make it right, but a 15 year old girl should only have to deal with her parents and God.

  8. Before going any further in this matter… I think we should find out what exactly Paul meant when he wrote “hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.” 1 Corinthians 5:5

    Otherwise, we might be trying to explain something without knowing exactly what “handing over to Satan” really means… and by the way, find out “how in the world” handing over someone to Satan will save his/her spirit…

  9. Let me take a stab and suspect it could be related to the torah idea of a person being sent outside the camp, so they could have an opportunity to reflect upon things that needed to be dealt with. There are also offenses that lead to karat, or cutting off the person from the community.

    This person was living a flesh driven life, and if he continued, would be on a path leading away from the kingdom of heaven, a path that would lead him to shrink back in the day of visitation.

    The community had been ignoring this outrageous behavior, this uncovering his father’s skirt, encouraging it to continue. The withdrawal of the community in disapproval and urging repentance could propel this man forward, which Paul later details in his discussion of the restoration of this same man. I think it is very clear that this is an extreme option reserved for unusual situations.

  10. Chaya said: Let me take a stab and suspect it could be related to the torah idea of a person being sent outside the camp, so they could have an opportunity to reflect upon things that needed to be dealt with. There are also offenses that lead to karat, or cutting off the person from the community.

    In this week’s Torah portion it says:

    A person who shall act high-handedly, whether native or proselyte, he blasphemed Hashem! — that person shall be cut off from among his people, for he scorned the word of Hashem and broke His commandment; that person will surely be cut off, his sin is upon him.”

    Numbers 15:30-31 (Stone Edition Chumash)

    On the one hand, 1 Corinthians 5:5 seems to indicate a temporary “handing over” so that the “sins of the flesh” will be destroyed leaving a pure spirit for the day of judgment. On the other hand, Hebrews 6:6 seems to indicate a “point of no return” when someone falls away and can never come back (I think Lancaster addresses this in one of his “Holy Epistle to the Hebrews” sermons). Of course, I have no idea what MacArthur is thinking when he tells Christian parents to hand their children over to Satan.

  11. Well, if we look at hasatan as the adversary, perhaps a spiritual force that tempts the yetzer harah, then it may be advising the community to allow a person to experience the consequences of their own actions. Often friends and family run interference and excuse or minimize offenses, encouraging the person to be less inclined to take it seriously or be troubled by it. I once heard codependency labeled, “co-sin,” and that seems accurate. For example, a wife is not responsible for her husband’s choice to get drunk frequently, but if she agrees to call his boss and say her husband is sick, then she is participating in his sin and bears some of the responsibility.

  12. Something like giving a person enough rope to hang themselves with. It doesn’t mean the person will go that far necessarily, but it firmly places the consequences in the hands of the person committing such-and-thus actions. But again, there’s the question of MacArthur’s intent in using those words, since he is highly unlikely to have a Jewish view of HaSatan.

  13. What would I do?

    Treat them no differently to how I’d treat them for any other sinfullness.

    Continue to love them but make it clear they can’t be a follower of Jesus if they wilfully continue in their sin.

    Also I see a difference between someone who has a same-sex attraction and someone involved in homosexual activity. It is the LATTER that is condemned by God.

    A person can’t control who they find attractive, but they can choose who they become sexually active with.

  14. One might also consider the hypocrisy of MacArthur in light of his silence concerning C. J. Mahaney (a macher in his Neo-Calvinist camp) and his cover-up of child molestation in his church. I didn’t see MacArthur or his cronies shunning him.

  15. As far as I understand the situation with Mahaney, at least as far as a court of law is concerned, he’s innocent until proven guilty. If he’s proven to have withheld evidence from police, that’s one thing, but we should probably avoid trying and convicting a person in the press (or blogosphere).

    This is also going a bit far afield from the core topic, which is how we would react as believers if our own son or daughter came out as gay. I know we all believe we’d treat the situation dispassionately, as if our child had confessed to a bank robbery or cheating on taxes, but like it or not, homosexuality is one of those issues that hits a very sensitive nerve for believers.

    Also, it’s one thing to regurgitate the standard Christian “party line” about how to respond and another thing entirely when it is your own flesh and blood. You really do have to be a parent to understand that this isn’t just some abstract theological puzzle to solve.

  16. Mahaney did not violate any Maryland law, as in that state clergy are not mandated reporters. In Oklahoma two pastors went to jail for similar behavior.

    Briefly: Mahaney prevailed in a civil lawsuit by the victims and their families due to statute of limitations issues, which occurred because Mahaney coerced the victims and their families into silence, ordering them not to go to the police or take their children to a medical professional, but to forgive the offender, who was required to call them on the phone and apologize and was allowed to remain a member of the church in good standing. The Neo-Calvinist blogsphere rejoiced at what they spun as Mahaney’s innocence. Mahaney did not deny and of this behavior, but spun it as within his role as pastor to, “decide how these people would best heal.”

    I saw this as relevant, as MacArthur is not following his own advice, in remaining silent about grievous sin in his own camp. Typical, what’s good for the peons is not required by the celebrities. Mahaney’s Sovereign Grace fired pastors who evidenced troubled or rebellious teens. I assume MacArthur’s children are all grown, but would suspect he would cover up any family dirty laundry, as this might impugn on his, “ability to rule his family well,” and threaten his position.

    http://endtimechaverim.wordpress.com/2013/04/05/the-c-j-mahaney-and-sgm-fiasco-or-why-am-i-not-surprised/ I researched the subject last year.

  17. If Mahaney is guilty of wrong doing, then he’ll be held accountable, if not in this life, then in the next. When I wrote this blog post, I didn’t craft it so much as an indictment against MacArthur as a call for a more even and compassionate response to gay Christians. There are already enough blogs out there, including in the “religious” space, that exist solely to perform hatchet jobs on people/groups the blog owners don’t like. I don’t want to turn “morning meditations” into that kind of circus.

  18. I understand. Religion is an unregulated business with virtually nothing in the way of consumer protection. I support the concept of an informed populace. Otherwise, we are standing idly beside our brothers’ blood. If someone chooses to close their eyes, that is their decision.

  19. Shmarya Rosenberg created FailedMessiah.com for a similar reason relative to the Chabad. Sometimes, I think he goes too far, but it is his blog and as far as I know, he doesn’t try to express his opinions about Chabad/Haredim elsewhere.

    After an uncomfortable close and personal encounter with online fraud, former reporter Brian Krebs created Krebs on Security. Now, he’s the “go to” guy when you want to find out about fraudulent activity in the world of commerce. For instance, he was the one to break the Target scam story before anyone else.

    I suppose you could do something similar on your own blog. Make yourself into a grass roots investigator/reporters of all the scandal in the world of Christianity/Judaism, filling the gap in the lack of oversight/supervision in the world of religion. Just a thought.

  20. Sigh, what I see missing is G-d’s perspective. ….”Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done….” Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand…
    Do we have adulterers demanding to practice adultery and be ‘loved’? What about fornicators? Liars? Thieves? Who is preaching lawlessness here? Why this is so difficult is too many are falling for the idea that telling the truth is not love. I would tell my child that I will love you, but I won’t lie to you. Remember the Tabernacle was to be built according to the pattern. As a community, we have a pattern, too. If someone wants to live in a way that is rebellion to HaShem’s kingdom, then they can’t be in His Kingdom. As a community we follow that pattern to instruct what isn’t permitted in the Kingdom. I said, “Fiddler on the Roof” has many lessons. His third daughter married out of the Faith. He loved her, but she was no longer in the ‘community.’ I confess, I did not watch the video.

  21. @Cynthia: While I agree that the Bible does not presuppose the normalization of homosexual relationships, and certainly nothing like “marriage equality” in the body of believers, it may not wholly condemn homosexuality as it exists in our world today. I recently reviewed a book written by a young gay man named Matthew Vines called “God and the Gay Christian.” He tried to defend his position taking a high view of the authority of the Bible, which is rare for advocates of gay inclusion in the church, and brought up some interesting historical thoughts that might affect the six “anti-gay” statements in the Bible. Again, I don’t think he made his point about gay inclusion in the church, but he did punch a hole in a lot of the active censure against homosexuality we usually base on certain key verses.

    @Chaya: I’d love to see a YouTube video about that. 😉

  22. @James, well, maybe someone could proffer it? After all, JM seems like he needs an enemy to conquer, and perhaps he is running out?

    Regarding your other suggestion, I would love to see a, “Operation Moneychangers Tables.” The problem is, Christians would rather be lied to and scammed by their own, than told the truth by an outsider. Most resent and angrily attack anyone who seeks to separate them from their idols. It fits, as I have had people get mad at me for informing them that some, “work at home,” scheme or MLM promise of riches was fake. There are many survivor blogs, but I think a good investigative journalism team could take down a number of the machers, if not all of them. Then perhaps there would be the Christian unity that so many desire, as they would all band together to fight to keep their dirty laundry hidden.

  23. On the other hand, you seem to speak a lot to what you see as fake or wrong in the world of religion. I think you’d have an audience if you directed your blog that way, and you are going to write about it anyway. I’m just suggesting you organize your commentary a bit more. You don’t have to, of course. It’s just a thought.

  24. “…was gay?

    I agree, James, with *I know we all believe we’d treat the situation dispassionately… but like it or not, homosexuality is one of those issues that hits a very sensitive nerve for believers.

    Also, it’s one thing to regurgitate the standard Christian “party line” about how to respond and another thing entirely when it is your own flesh and blood. You really do have to be a parent to understand that this isn’t just some abstract theological puzzle…*

    I will approach answering from what I see as an easier angle in terms of what I would do. It would depend, at least in part, on what would be meant by gay — by gay behavior. This is an “angle” easily forgotten in OUR usual perspective these days. A way for me to illustrate is to relay something said when the captive U.S. soldier was released recently. It was speculated that he was clean-shaven as a sign of disrespect in the context of a “saying” over there, boys being for pleasure and women for babies. I don’t mean to decide (without my knowing) that this is actually why the man was clean-shaven; my point is disrespect. And I’ve read in homosexual news (their own self- and community- reflection) that there is a similar attitude (although usually not in violence) among a subset of homosexual people. No rationalizations of denigration (of men or women in a range from abuse to lack of relating) can be afforded tolerance in stride (much less approval). [That reminds me of comments under a different post. Someone said women can’t be treated badly often because that would lead to mutual destruction as women are needed procreatively; that reasoning doesn’t hold up to reality (additionally, it is usually homosexual effiminate types, who are looked down on and treated badly though they are part of an equation sought out). Now, in most (wrong) cultures, the bad person is that abused person because masculinity and power is seen as superior and good. Male on male rape in war (and male on female whenever) is encouraged.] We should (rather, I would) above all be against bad interaction. That’s not how all homosexual relating goes though.

    Cynthia Dunaway asked: “….Do we have adulterers demanding to practice adultery and be ‘loved’? What about fornicators? Liars? Thieves? Who is preaching lawlessness here? Why this is so difficult is too many are falling for the idea that telling the truth is not love. I would tell my child that I will love you, but I won’t lie….”

    To answer that question: Yes, there are people who demand this.
    As for the decision not to lie for these people (adulterers, thieves, etc., and especially people who want to be disingenous or lie in various ways), yeah, I agree, I won’t lie to make these people happy. But there is a price. They can have the upper hand (as “successful” people often are sociopaths or worse) and can on top of that actually think, or talk and behave as if they do think, they are in the right. Too bad for you. You’re bad and lose. I’m not talking about gay people here, but those who are worse.

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