Tag Archives: talmidei yeshua

The Blessings of Living in Israel are for the Jews

The Jewish people, the Almighty, the Torah and Eretz Yisroel (The Land of Israel). For more than 3,300 years we’ve been bound together. Did you ever wonder what the Sages taught us about how special is the Land of Israel? Here is a compilation from The Mitzvah to Live in Eretz Israel:

“There is no love like the love for the Land of Israel” — Bamidbar Rabba 23:7.

“There is no Torah like the Torah of the Land of Israel” — Bereshit Rabba 16,7.

“The air of the Land of Israel makes one wise” — Talmud, Bava Batra 158b.

“There are 10 portions of Torah in the world: 9 in the Land of Israel and 1 in the rest of the world” — Esther Rabba 1.

“If you desire to see the Shechina (Divine Presence) in this world, study Torah in the Land of Israel” — Midrash Tehillim 105.

“Living in the Land of Israel is the equivalent to all the mitzvot (commandments) in the Torah” — Sifrei, Parshat Re’eh, Tosefta Avoda Zara 5).

The Ramban, Nachmanides, writes that “We are commanded to take possession of the Land God gave to our forefathers, Avraham, Yitzchak and Ya’akov (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob). We must not leave it to others or in desolation, as God told them, ‘And you will take possession of the land, for I gave the Land to you to possess and you will settle the Land which I promised to your fathers’ (Deut. 17:14, 26:1).”

Israel is far more than just a country or a refuge for the Jewish people — it is an integral part of our spiritual destiny!

-Rabbi Kalman Packouz
Shabbat Shalom Weekly commentary for Torah Portion Bo (Exodus 10:1-13:16)
Aish.com

It’s quite clear Rabbi Packouz is addressing a Jewish audience. After all, what other people have ever been commanded to take possession of and live in the Land of Israel? Only the Jews, the modern descendants of the ancient Hebrews, the Israelites who wandered the desert for forty years prior to coming into their inheritance.

But I know more than a few non-Jewish Talmidei Yeshua who are envious and also desire the blessings listed above (I only quoted part of Rabbi Packouz’s article, so please click the link I provided above to read the full write-up).

I suppose we should be a little envious. After all there are tremendous blessings accorded the Jewish people for living in Israel that cannot be apprehended by anyone who isn’t Jewish. Further, except for maybe some exceptional cases, in Messianic Days, Israel will be filled with all or most of the world’s Jewish population. Imagine the prophesies finally being fulfilled.

“For I am the Lord your God,
The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
I have given Egypt as your ransom,
Cush and Seba in your place.
“Since you are precious in My sight,
Since you are honored and I love you,
I will give other men in your place and other peoples in exchange for your life.
“Do not fear, for I am with you;
I will bring your offspring from the east,
And gather you from the west.
“I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’
And to the south, ‘Do not hold them back.’
Bring My sons from afar
And My daughters from the ends of the earth,
Everyone who is called by My name,
And whom I have created for My glory,
Whom I have formed, even whom I have made.”

Isaiah 43:3-7 (NASB)

MessiahAccording to Judaism 101:

The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).

All of this is part of the Jewish argument that Jesus (Yeshua) couldn’t possibly be the Messiah because during his earthly life in the late Second Temple period, he did none of these things and then he died.

Christians believe that he was resurrected, ascended into Heaven, is our High Priest in the Heavenly Court, and in due time, will return.

Most Christians don’t believe Jesus will politically and spiritually redeem the Jewish people upon his return, although they probably would agree that if Jews converted to Christianity, they would receive spiritual redemption (I don’t think the Church would go for the idea of Israel being an actual political entity under Jesus, let alone the Kingdom that would rule all the other nations of the world, even though the Bible states this).

I know a lot of Christians who would vehemently oppose any idea that Jesus would rebuild the Temple and re-establish the Levitical priesthood and sacrifices, let alone restore the Sanhedrin court system.

But if we set aside Christianity’s traditions as they steer the Church’s doctrinal teachings, and if we accept the fact that non-Jews do not have a portion in the Land of Israel, just what do we Goyim have as far as Israel goes?

Thus says the Lord God,

“Behold, I will lift up My hand to the nations
And set up My standard to the peoples;
And they will bring your sons in their bosom,
And your daughters will be carried on their shoulders.
“Kings will be your guardians,
And their princesses your nurses.
They will bow down to you with their faces to the earth
And lick the dust of your feet;
And you will know that I am the Lord;
Those who hopefully wait for Me will not be put to shame.”

Isaiah 49:22-23

“Arise, shine; for your light has come,
And the glory of the Lord has risen upon you.
“For behold, darkness will cover the earth
And deep darkness the peoples;
But the Lord will rise upon you
And His glory will appear upon you.
“Nations will come to your light,
And kings to the brightness of your rising.
“Lift up your eyes round about and see;
They all gather together, they come to you.
Your sons will come from afar,
And your daughters will be carried in the arms.

Isaiah 60:1-4

New arrivals at Ben Gurion airport
New arrivals at Ben Gurion airport

It seems our job is to facilitate the return of the Jewish people to Israel, to not just “surrender” them from our lands, but to take an active part in the Messiah’s mission to return each and every Jewish man, woman, and child to the bosom of their nation Israel, for the Jews are the nation of Israel. I’ve tried looking for information regarding what, if any, inheritance Gentiles may expect regarding Israel, but there’s nothing clearcut.

But something called ElijahNet.net suggests that the Gentiles who join themselves to Israel will indeed have a portion:

Will the Gentiles who have joined themselves to the Lord be separate from His people? The God of Israel says, “No. They will be part of My household, My family.” Will the Gentiles who join themselves to the Lord be excluded from the holy place and service of the Lord? God says, “No. They will worship Me in My house, along with those of the dispersed of Israel whom I have gathered. They will be gathered to the remnant of Israel.”

“In the last days, the mountain of the house of the Lord will be established as the chief of the mountains, and will be raised above the hills: and all the goyim will stream to it. And many peoples will come and say, ‘Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; that He may teach us concerning His ways, and that we may walk in His paths, for the law [Torah] will go forth from Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.’ And He will judge between the goyim, and will render decisions for many peoples; and they will hammer their swords into plowshares, nation will not lift up sword against nation, and never again will they learn war.” (Is. 2:2-3, Mic. 4:1-3)

God gave Ezekiel visions of a time to come when living, healing water would flow out of Jerusalem. (Ezek. 47:1-12) The Lord told Ezekiel that the alien in the midst of Israel will be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. (Ezek. 47:21-23)

I should point out that from a Jewish point of view, Ezekiel 47:21-23 isn’t about giving Gentiles part of the Land of Israel.

A more apparently Christian source has this to say:

Question: Are we as “gentile Christians” part of Israel (Rom 11:17)? Do any of the promises made to Israel as a nation apply to us, for example Deuteronomy 28 (I’ve often heard this one used by prosperity teachers although they never read past the fourteenth verse).

Answer (in part): Regarding your first question, I would say that “no” we are not “part of Israel” as gentile Christians. Both Jewish and Gentile Christians today make up the “Church” the “body of Christ” or “one new man” which Paul discusses in Ephesians 2. We, as Gentiles, were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise (Eph. 2:12), but now we have been brought near through Christ. But notice that we are not said to be “part of Israel” or a “new Israel.” Instead, both Jews and Gentiles are said to be joined into a new spiritual body, the one new man (Eph. 2:15). Another evidence that we are not “part of Israel” is found by carefully examining Paul’s use of the term “Israel” in Romans 9-11, and especially chapter 11. There, it will be found that “Israel” still refers to Jews.

Regarding your second question, “Do any of the promises made to Israel as a nation apply to us, for example Deuteronomy 28 . . .”

Moses at SinaiWhile there are principles in Deu. 28 which apply in general (e.g., God will bless a nation which is devoted to Him and follows His will, He will turn away from a nation—such as ours—which forsakes Him), the context of the passage is very clearly specific to the nation Israel. It includes curses which make absolutely no sense when applied to Gentiles (believers or otherwise). For example, the promise of worldwide scattering in judgment of disbelief: yet Gentiles (non-Jews) have always been scattered all over the world.

Whereas all scripture is written for our learning (Rom. 15:4), it is not all written specifically to us—and this is the case in Deuteronomy 28. Both the blessings and curses stated there apply to Israel, as the phrase “wandering Jew” and history abundantly prove.

Concerning the blessings which come to believing Gentiles, this is best understood by studying the relationship between the New Covenant (given to Israel in Jeremiah 31) and the Church.

Of course, there are a seemingly endless collection of Jewish and Christian information sources on the web, so this is only a very tiny sampling.

I couldn’t find anything at AskNoah.org about what sort of connection there could possibly be between a righteous Gentile and the Land of Israel.

I did find something on their view of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31, as well as whether or not Noahides will worship at the Third Temple. From the latter article:

Gentiles were welcomed to bring their sacrificial offerings for G-d to the First and Second Temples in Jerusalem, and they will participate even more at the Third Temple – especially during the festival of Sukkot (Zechariah 14:16).

Also…

In his commentary on the Torah section beginning with Genesis 12:1, Ramban (Nachmanides) wrote:

“Even in the time of Joshua, … the Gentiles knew that this place was the most august of all, that it was at the center of the inhabited world; and [Torah] Tradition had taught them that it corresponds in this world to the celestial Temple where Divine Majesty, called (righteousness), resides.”

And…

When the First Temple was inaugurated by King Solomon, he beseeched G-d with an eloquent prayer that included the following words (Kings I, 8:41-43) (which show that in the past, Gentiles were welcomed to the First and Second Temples, and that they will participate even more in the Third Temple)…

And finally, the article quotes from Isaiah 2:2-3 regarding the participation of Gentiles in the Temple:

“And it will come to pass at the end of days that the mountain of G-d’s House will be firmly established, even higher than the peaks, and all the peoples will flow toward it as a river. And many nations will go and will cry, ‘Let us go up toward the mountain of G-d’s House, to the House of the L-rd of Jacob, and we will learn from His ways and walk in His paths, for out of Zion goes forth Torah and the word of G-d from Jerusalem.’ “

Of course, participation in the Temple rites is not the same as having any portion in the Land. Isaiah 56 aside, I can’t find a legitimate Jewish commentary saying that any Gentiles will have a permanent home in the Land of Israel at all. It seems that we can certainly visit, and if intermarried, the Gentile would probably live in Israel with the Jewish spouse, but that’s about it.

christian-tourists-in-israel
Christian tourists in Israel

Is that such a bad thing? I know some people who operate in the Hebrew Roots space who most likely would think so. I think some of those non-Jews somehow believe they have “rights” not only to the Land of Israel, but to the Torah mitzvot as well. It’s been a long-standing argument. The relationship between Gentiles and the Land of Israel is probably something like how Jews traditionally accept Gentiles visiting the synagogue:

Non-Jews are always welcome to attend services in a synagogue, so long as they behave as proper guests. Proselytizing and “witnessing” to the congregation are not proper guest behavior.

When going to a synagogue, you should dress as you would for church: nicely, formally, and modestly. A man should wear a yarmulke (skullcap) if Jewish men in the congregation do so; yarmulkes are available at the entrance for those who do not have one. In some synagogues, married women should also wear a head covering. A piece of lace sometimes called a “chapel hat” is generally provided for this purpose in synagogues where this is required. Non-Jews should not, however, wear a tallit (prayer shawl) or tefillin, because these items are signs of our obligation to observe Jewish law.

During services, non-Jews can follow along with the English, which is normally printed side-by-side with the Hebrew in the prayerbook. You may join in with as much or as little of the prayer service as you feel comfortable participating in. You may wish to review Jewish Liturgy before attending the service, to gain a better understanding of what is going on.

Non-Jews should stand whenever the Ark is open and when the Torah is carried to or from the Ark, as a sign of respect for the Torah and for G-d. At any other time where worshippers stand, non-Jews may stand or sit.

When we non-Jews are in Israel, we are guests and we are expected to treat our hosts with proper respect, just as if we were visiting someone else’s house. You wouldn’t go into someone else’s home and act as if you lived there, would you?

In Rabbi Moshe Weiner’s Passover message to all Noahides, he states:

One of the wonders of the future redemption is the revelation of the Divine light that will shine onto the whole world, to all humanity (Isaiah 60:3). From the power of this light, all people will recognize the true existence of the Master of the world, Who fills the whole world, as stated by the prophet Isaiah (52:8-10): “with their own eyes they will see that G-d returns to Zion. Burst out, sing glad song in unison, O ruins of Jerusalem together, for G-d will have comforted His people; He will have redeemed Jerusalem. G-d has bared His holy arm before the eyes of all the nations; all ends of the earth will see the salvation of our G-d.”

Just as Moses our teacher at Mount Sinai began to repair the world, including all the Children of Noah by giving the Seven Commandments that were commanded to them, so too, the Messiah will teach and show the world (but in a more wondrous manner) the same recognition in the truth of the Creator of the universe which began to be revealed by Moses.

It is a great merit for each and every one of us to bring himself and his community to the faith and anticipation of this future freedom for the whole world. This will be freedom from evil and falsehood, and a redemption by which we will merit to go out from darkness to a great and true light.

Toward the lightCertainly it seems, the righteous Gentiles are included in many of the blessings of Messiah and that both Jew and Gentile will “go out from darkness to a great and true light.”

But that’s as far as I can understand it. All of those blessings Rabbi Packouz mentions that are received by those living in the Land of Israel are only received by the Jews living in the Land of Israel. For the Gentiles, not so much.

I can only imagine that Gentiles are still blessed in some manner when they/we visit Israel, but we’re visitors and guests, not residents. We may be associated with Israel as citizens of the vassal nations, subservient to our King, and we may have been brought near to her (see Ephesians 2:13) so that there is to be peace between Israel and we people of the nations (although I suspect that peace won’t be truly realized until the Messiah establishes his reign as King in Israel over the world), but none of that means that we are Israel, nor that we have rights to any of her real estate (at least as far as I can discover).

I guess in the resurrection, just like right now, I’ll have to be satisfied with my own little corner of Idaho.

My (Jewish) wife did surprise me again the other day. Out of a proverbial “clear blue sky,” she asked me if I’d given up on any plans to visit Israel. I didn’t know what to say. One circumstance or the other has gotten in the way and I haven’t even been thinking of it lately. I also am concerned about expenses for a number of complicated (and private) reasons, so thought maybe my long-suffering wife would appreciate it if I didn’t spend thousands of dollars playing tourist in the middle east.

I don’t know.

Blogger Ro Pinto wrote multiple blog posts about her recent trip to Israel including this summary, and it is abundantly obvious that she has a tremendous love of and devotion to the God of Israel, His people, and their Land. Some of her spiritual insights border on spectacular, which is a realm that has always eluded me.

Compared to how she related to Israel during her trip, I can’t imagine achieving anywhere near such experiences and insights. I think a visit to Israel is supposed to be as much about what you bring to the table spiritually as what you expect to receive.

Visiting Israel as a Gentile is not like traveling to any other nation on Earth. Jerusalem is the only city on the planet where God has put His Holy Name. Every time I seriously think of traveling to the Holy Land, I feel humbled and chagrined. Who am I compared the men and women of the Bible who trod that ancient Land, the Prophets, the Kings, the warriors, the scholars?

Every time I read or hear from some non-Jewish person who lays claim to Israel or the Torah, I’m astonished at the “Obama-like” audacity they exhibit. The feeling of being able to do anything you want, regardless of the (in this case Biblical) Law, without so much as a “by your leave”. You can’t bypass the God of Israel with a pen and a phone.

Who among the Gentile Talmidei Yeshua hasn’t felt the call of Israel at one point of another in our lives? Who hasn’t, at some time in our existence, wanted to bathe in the glow of the blessings Rabbi Packouz outlined in his “Shabbat Shalom Weekly” article?

Up to JerusalemBut it’s like being a kid and watching the boy or girl next door receive a shiny new bicycle for their birthday. Just because you want to ride on that bike too, doesn’t mean it belongs to you.

Noahides, Talmidei Yeshua, and Shabbos Observance Revisited

On Facebook, I found a link to a YouTube video titled Can a Noahide/Non-Jew Keep Shabbos? and naturally I was intrigued. I should say that I have a pretty good idea how an Orthodox Rabbi would answer that question, but I watched the video anyway.

Afterward, I looked up the source, EmunahChannel.com, and discovered that the Rabbi answering the question on the video is Rav Dror Moshe Cassouto. According to the site’s About page:

Rav Dror Moshe Cassouto brings to us rare honest pure Emuna principals of Rabbi Nachman. Our hope is that our Torah Videos will bring you closer to the Bore Olam (Creator of the Universe) and to serve Him with joy, faith, and trust (Simcha, Emunah and Bitachon).

Learn the real meaning of life, the real purpose in life available to you today! Find Fulfillment, Acceptance, Purpose for your life. Discover the good points in yourself and others, and Finding how to serve God with every aspect of your being: Your mind, Your talents, Your emotions.

Breslov teachings from Rabbi Dror Moshe Cassouto, Jerusalem, Israel. Torah Shiur / Shiurim.

There’s more, but you can click the link I provided above and read all of the content for yourself.

Recently, I wrote a blog post called Not a Noahide, in which I was reminded in the comments section, I probably should have called “More than a Noahide.” I also wrote a companion piece titled Talmidei Yeshua which addresses what we Judaicly-aware Gentiles in Yeshua (Jesus) should call ourselves and what that’s supposed to mean (an ongoing process of self-definition).

They both were inspired by a source that attempts to draw parallels between Noahides and we non-Jewish “Talmidei Yeshua,” or a population that’s more commonly known as Messianic Gentiles.

ShabbatI mentioned the “ongoing process of self-definition” above, but this is also a process of trying to understand the role of the non-Jew in Jewish religious and communal space. A Noahide’s role is well-defined by the various branches of Judaism, but not so the role of the “Talmidei Yeshua” in Messianic Jewish space.

But, unless you’ve already looked at the nearly seven minute video of Rav Cassouto’s response to the question at hand, you probably want to know what he said. Here are my rough notes, which I typed into notepad as I was listening to the Rav speak.

Halachically no. Must violate some portion of shabbat.

Any Gentile who does observe Shabbos must be punished horribly.

Not that they don’t want us to keep shabbos, but it was a gift to Israel from Hashem.

To do so, they must convert to Am Yisrael and the converts are loved in six ways, and born Jews are loved in five.

The purpose of our life is to be humble and me must be humble that we are not Am Yisrael. A Gentile can believe in the One God, but may still not believe that God chose the people of Israel as the chosen nation and they have certain priorities and privleges that other nations don’t have.

We can enjoy shabbos but need to violate Shabbos in a minor way like turning on a light. Not allowed to receive the Shabbos like Am Yisrael. The purpose is to be humble.

Be humble and crown Hashem and to serve Him. Gentiles level of doing this is less than Am Yisrael. If you convert, your level is elevated to Am Yisrael.

Rav Dror Moshe Cassouto
Rav Dror Moshe Cassouto

These are rough notes, so they may seem a tad disjointed. The bottom line is that halachically, Gentiles are not to observe the Shabbat in the manner of Am Yisrael because we are not Am Yisrael. We cannot claim to have fulfilled the mitzvah of Shabbat observance in the manner of the Jews.

However, if we not only acknowledge the existence of the One God but also that He is the God who chose Am Yisrael to be elevated above the nations, then we can appreciate the Shabbat in a similar manner to Am Yisrael, as long as we violate the Shabbat in some sense, such as turning on and off a light switch. Seems simple enough as far as it goes.

To truly be able to observe Shabbos and fulfill the mitzvah, a Gentile must convert to Am Yisarel. The Rav also said that Hashem loves the convert even more than the born Jew, which is interesting.

But I don’t believe Gentile Talmidei Yeshua are only Noahides by another name. I believe we are more. If I didn’t, then I’d have to admit that faith and trust in Yeshua is meaningless. If that were true, why did the Apostle Paul (Rav Shaul) approach the Gentile God-Fearers in the synagogues of his day and reveal to them the good news of Rav Yeshua? They were already God-fearers. What would have been the point?

The matter of halachah and Shabbos observance by the Gentile Talmidei Yeshua has been a hotly debated topic in the Messianic blogosphere and many other venues over the years. I’ve commented on this many times, including in Messianic Jewish Shabbat Observance and the Gentile.

I doubt we can draw a direct parallel between Rav Cassouto’s commentary and the various opinions on the same topic in the Messianic realm. It’s difficult to reconcile this with what we read in Isaiah 56, although I’ve certainly tried.

For a variety of reasons I’ve written about at length previously, I don’t particularly keep a Shabbat of any sort. I certainly don’t want to attempt anything that would approach the level of observance of my Jewish spouse, and her’s isn’t what you’d call “Orthodox” (and I’ve been chided by her in the past for trying).

As I write this, she’s preparing to go to shul for Shabbos services, which pleases me.

MessiahI suspect that in Messianic Days, the people of the nations will likely keep some sort of Shabbos, but how that will compare to Jewish observance, I cannot say. In spite of the opinions of many and what they teach, I think the specific details aren’t definitively available.

That said, I suspect that, just as the Acts 15 Jerusalem letter to the ancient Gentile “Talmidei Yeshua” defined a less stringent level of observance than that incumbant upon Am Yisrael, our Shabbat observance, even in the Kingdom of Heaven, will still not be quite the same as that of the Jews.

So perhaps in the present age, we have a bit of latitude as to how we choose to honor Hashem on Shabbos. I know when I say that, I drive certain people nuts. Especially in religious terms, we like to have our lives well-ordered and highly specified. We want the rules and then we want to either obey those rules as Holy edicts from Heaven, or to adapt those rules and then say to ourselves that our adaptation is the Holy edict from Heaven (as opposed to the “man-made rules” of the Rabbis, who we are nonetheless sourcing).

We are more than Noahides, but what we are remains indistinct, at least as an overarching set of standards for we “Talmidei Yeshua.” According to the Nanos and Zetterholm volume Paul Within Judaism, there may not have been a definitive set of standards and roles, even for our ancient counterparts.

That’s also something that drives people nuts, but we can’t reasonably fill in the gaps in our knowledge with our imagination (although a great deal of theology and doctrine in certain circles does this to one degree or another).

All I’m doing here is attempting an honest (however brief) examination of the topic from the perspective of an “average guy”. Face it. I’m no scholar, leader, teacher, or pundit. I’m just a person trying to figure it all out who happens to write about that journey.

shabbatWhat does that mean to you as the non-Jewish disciple of Rav Yeshua (Jesus Christ)? Right now, it can mean whatever you want it to mean in terms of your own conscience and your understanding of the message of the Bible.

The Bible is highly biased toward Israel and the Jewish people, so we only have certain portions that directly speak to the nations. Interpreting those correctly, particularly within a Jewish document defining a Jewish context and covenant relationship with Hashem, is no small task.

Neither is our individual relationship with God. We progress one step at a time with the understanding that our movement is not at all linear. We learn by doing.

Learn to do good. Seek justice. Aid the oppressed. Uphold the rights of the orphan. Defend the cause of the widow.

Isaiah 1:17

Talmidei Yeshua

Actually Questor made the suggestion for a proper term by which to call Judaicly-aware non-Jewish disciples of Rav Yeshua in coining the phrase תָלְמִדִם שׁל יֵשׁוּע – Talmidim shel Yeshua – Disciples of Yeshua, however ProclaimLiberty suggested:

Nice label suggestion, “Q”, but the phrase requires the possessive contraction as: “תָלְמִדִי יֵשׁוּע” (Talmidei Yeshua) rather than as merely a descriptive or explanatory phrase.

Of course, referring to people like me as “Talmidei Yeshua” is going to draw a lot of blank stares from Christians or just about anyone else.

Just the other day, I got a knock on my door, and when I answered, the fellow asked if I was a Christian. I said “yes,” but pointing at the mezuzah on the door frame, I said my wife was Jewish. If I had told him something “I’m Talmidei Yeshua,” he might have given me a much less predictable response.

For as many years as I’ve been involved in the Hebrew Roots and Messianic Jewish movements, there’s been a struggle as to what to call ourselves. OK, Jewish disciples of Messiah can call themselves Messianic Jews, but even early on, there was some resistance to applying the word “Messianic” to non-Jews, the idea being that “Messianic” belonged to the Jewish people.

church?A lot of Gentiles in Messiah don’t like being referred to or like calling themselves “Christians” because of the implications of replacement theology, denial of the applicability of the Torah as a requirement of God’s for Jews in general and Messianic Jews in particular, and the whole church on Sunday, Christmas, Easter, eating ham at the drop of a hat deal that seems so anti-Jewish and thereby anti-Messiah.

Some folks hedge their bets and say they’re “believers” which is acceptable as an alternate “Christian-ese” word that still doesn’t peg the non-Jewish Messianic as “Christian” specifically.

However, in spite of all this, Messianic Gentiles as a proper term, has risen to the top of the list in being the most accurate representation of who we rather odd non-Jewish disciples of the Jewish Messiah King are in our theology, doctrine, and praxis.

That said, Q and PL may have a point in addressing us as “Talmidei Yeshua” since “Yeshua’s disciples” is both accurate and generic. I even mentioned to PL that we could refer to both Jews and Gentiles in Messiah by that title and still be correct.

Except that he reminded me of something:

Yes, it could refer to both, though Jewish disciples might prefer ‘Hasidei Yeshua. Or, as someone in my local ‘havurah suggested last week, Jewish disciples might do well to forego any distinctive label altogether, being satisfied to be simply Jews without any such label that could suggest separatist factionalism or “minut”. Just as Rav Shaul was content to identify himself simply as a Pharisee or a Binyamini (tribal designator), without any other qualifier specifically associated with Rav Yeshua, so could modern Jewish disciples do in modern terms. Distinctive terms such as “Nazarene” did not appear until later, and were used primarily to distinguish Jewish messianists as individuals to be avoided or forced out of the Jewish community. That sort of social dis-interaction needs to be countered as Jewish messianists re-integrate within the wider Jewish community, bringing what they’ve learned from Rav Yeshua with them.

For gentile disciples, on the other hand, a label could have a positive function to emphasize that such individuals have “drawn close” to the Jewish community and embraced the principles and values of the Torah covenant.

Stuart Dauermann
Rabbi Stuart Dauermann

And that Reminded me of Rabbi Stuart Dauermann’s article “The Jewish People are Us — not Them,” published in Messiah Journal, which I reviewed a couple of years back.

Historically, converting to Christianity has been seen as drawing the convert out of his or her former life and associations and into the Church. This has been true whether the convert were a Jew or anyone else. Sometimes, the convert’s Jewish family and friends don’t even acknowledge this person as Jewish anymore.

However, as Dauermann correctly pointed out and as I interpret him, being Messianic is a very Jewish thing to do. All religious Jews eagerly await the coming of Messiah. The only difference between a Messianic Jew and any other religious Jew, is that the Messianic acknowledges the specific revelation of Messiah as Rav Yeshua (I’m sure there are Jews who would strongly debate this point).

Accepting the revelation of our Rav as Moshiach, if anything, should increase and enhance the observance of a Jew and ideally, draw the Jew nearer to his/her fellows and to Jewish devotion and praxis.

That’s why there probably isn’t any real need to call a Messianic Jew anything other than a Jew. PL rightly points out that Paul didn’t create a special designation for himself after the events of Acts 9. So why should any other Jewish disciple of the Rav do so?

However, it always seems to come back to “what do we do with the Gentiles?” If being “Messianic” is such a Jewish thing to do, then it must be a pretty strange thing for a non-Jew to do. Who are we? What do we call ourselves? How do we define our praxis? Once we enter this world, as distinguished from the more traditional Church, we find ourselves in an indistinct, foggy, no-man’s-land, being neither fish nor fowl, still Gentile but located, even tangentially, in Jewish space because we have declared ourselves as disciples of the Jewish Rav.

One of these things is not like the othersCalling ourselves Talmidei Yeshua may not change a great deal, but it does give us some small sense of identity, or at least what to call ourselves, that shouldn’t be objectionable in Jewish religious and social space. Of course, it’ll rather put off most Christians who consider the title “Christian” to be more than sufficient, but then again, anyone who’s been reading this blog for a while knows that people like me don’t think, speak, teach, write, or believe in precisely the same things you’ll find preached in the average Evangelical Church on Sunday morning.

Of course, those other pesky questions remain unanswered for the most part. Yet I think each person has created his or her own answers out of necessity. Some let themselves be defined by the standards of accepted praxis for Gentiles in their congregations. Some, like me who have no congregation or group, self-define. However, there remains no single standard to which the Talmidei Yeshua can consult and emulate.

This is probably why so many of the non-Jewish Talmidei Yeshua look to their Jewish counterparts with envy since Jewish halachah is well-defined.

My Jewish wife would be perplexed by all this. From her point of view, and from the point of view of the Jews attending the two synagogues in my community, I’m considered a Christian and that’s that. All the little spins and twists that I derive from Jewish literature in understanding my faith are moot to them.

human beings
Photo: theshirtlist.com

This isn’t a problem really if we don’t factor community into the equation. Besides my name, I have no idea how God refers to me, how He categorizes me (besides “human” or “Goy”), how He thinks of me, if He has to have categories at all. None of this probably matters to Him. He doesn’t see titles or labels, He sees the heart and the relationship.

In the end, that’s all there is. Maybe we live in community or at least family, but we die alone and only God receives us. He calls us by whatever name He wills.